Intelligent Reasoning

Promoting, advancing and defending Intelligent Design via data, logic and Intelligent Reasoning and exposing the alleged theory of evolution as the nonsense it is. I also educate evotards about ID and the alleged theory of evolution one tard at a time and sometimes in groups

Sunday, February 02, 2014

An Invitation to Kevin ReTARD McCarthy- Buy a Vowel

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As if I needed more evidence that Kevin doesn't understand science, Kevin posted the following spewage:
Describes the so-called barrier in evolution that prevents so-called macroevolution from occurring. Evidence supporting this claim must be included. ”I say it exists” is not evidence. In your discussion, you will need to show an understanding of how actual evolution works (not the typical ID strawman), how new taxonomic groups are formed (hint, I’ve described this in detail), and an explanation of how new taxonomic orders arise if not by evolution (the designer did it is not an explanation unless you provide evidence for the designer as well).
 

No, dumbass. It is up to YOU to demonstrate the validity of macroevolution. It isn’t up to us to prove a negative and only someone ignorant of science would ask us to. And here is Kevin. 

That said, just look at Lenski’s experiment- 50,000+ generations and not even a new protein, let alone a new multi-protein complex. Also Kevin is full of shit as neither he nor anyone else has described macroevolution in any detail. Doing so would be to discuss the genes involved along with how those genes and networks came to be. You have nothing but branching of species. Unfortunately there isn’t anything in the observed cases of speciation that we can extrapolate into macroevolution. 

My bet is Kevin doesn’t understand what macroevolution entails.: Micro and Macro Evolution- What is the Real Difference

 
Who is the designer and the evidence for the DESIGNER to exist (not any supposed works of said designer). It’s very silly to say that the tooth fairy is the cause of teeth disappearing when there’s no evidence that the tooth fair exists. Inferences about a designer are not sufficient when there is an alternate explanation for the diversity of life.

Double-dumbass. We don’t even know who designed Stonehenge. Ya see, moron, REALITY dictates that in the absence of direct observation of designer input, the ONLY possible way to make any scientific determination about the designer(s) or specific process(es) used, is by studying the design and all relevant evidence. 

The evidence that people built Stonehenge is, wait for it, Stonehenge and the other evidence left behind. The inference of design can be made independent from the designer.

 If we knew who the designer was we wouldn’t need science to help us make a design inference- design would be a given. It’s as if Kevin is proud of his ignorance of science.
 
Forensic science examines the scene for evidence the criminal may have left behind. Archaeologists don't look for existing civilizations. They look for ancient civilizations and they find them by locating the supposed works of the people. SETI looks for the supposed works of ET.
 
Kevin is obviously retarded.

 
The computation of complexity, specified complexity, complex specified information, or any other ID notion about complexity, information, or specificity. This computation can be for a gene, a protein, a structure, or an organism. The same computation for a non-designed system (you choose, but examples would be a rock of the same mass as an organism, a string of random numbers the same length as the gene or protein (include a string of data that has been encrypted using an approved method (256 bit AES for example)). In this description all variables should be explicitly defined and explained. The results should also be explained (i.e. why does this value indicate design while that value indicates non-design.)
I already provided you with that and you obviously choked on it. Measuring CSI in Biology

 
The existence of front-loading in any open-source genetic algorithm. I have often heard that programmers ‘design’ the results of genetic algorithms by inserting the ‘correct’ values in the program somehow. Since there are numerous examples of open-source genetic algorithms, it should be trivial to determine where, exactly, the information is front-loaded. An alternate version of this would be a detailed explanation of how a ‘search’ in a genetic algorithm is different from a ‘search’ by a population in the real world. This should be mathematically rigorous not “because living things are different than programs”.
Just shut up- you are obviously proud to be an asshole. Genetic algorithms are goal-oriented. They are designed for specific purposes. For a GA to design an antenna, for example, all of the information for that antenna has to be programmed in and the offspring are compared to that. They employ a targeted search and cumulative selection to achieve a pre-specified result, ie the specification of the antenna required.
 

Dawkins’ “weasel” is unable to design an antenna because it isn’t designed to. Only GAs specifically designed to design an antenna can do so. Dawkins' weasel wouldn't have found the target sentence if that wasn't front loaded into the program. The antenna program never would have designed the proper antenna if the specifications for that antenna wasn't front loaded into the program. Got that, dipshit?

 
Which is the designer responsible for and why? A) The creation of the entire universe and everything in it. B) The creation of only living things on Earth. C) The creation of only ‘complex’ (include a definition and how you determine complexity) structures in organisms. D) The front-loading of living things with genes that will help their descendants survive (examples required). E) something not yet mentioned by ID advocates.

 

Again, THAT is what science is for, Kevin. But the why seems to be that we are here to make scientific discoveries.

 
A page number of any description of any of this or experiments that support these statements in Meyer’s Darwin’s Doubt. I have asked this multiple times from multiple people who feel that my treatment of Darwin’s Doubt is incomplete. Yet not a single one of them have responded

Kevin, you butchered that book. You should be ashamed but yet you are not. Strange.

108 Comments:

  • At 12:35 AM, Blogger Rich Hughes said…

    LOL. There goes negative argument Joe again, Can't help himself. Make a case for design on its own merits, if you can. Count the letters in the recipe, or something..

     
  • At 6:55 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Yes Richie, I know that you are proud to be an ignorant asshole.

    I have made a case for design on its own merits, Richie. Why do you think that your ignorance means I did not do so? Why do you think that I am making a negative argument?

    Why is it that YOU can NEVER make your case on its merits and instead all you can do is spew you ignorant innuedos?

     
  • At 10:11 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Zachriel: We don’t even know who designed Stonehenge.

    Actually, we have a very good idea. At the time of the construction of Stonehenge, there was a variety of simian that was known to build stone monuments. There is evidence of these simians living in the vicinity of Stonehenge. It's reasonable to conclude that these simians built Stonehenge.

     
  • At 10:13 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    LoL! @ Zachriel- Your general description proves my point- we do NOT know who designed Stonehenge. And everything we do know about it came from studying it and all relevant evidence, just as I said.

    But thanks for continuing to prove that you are dishonest.

     
  • At 10:17 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: Your general description proves my point- we do NOT know who designed Stonehenge.

    Sure we do. It was a certain species of simian, Homo sapiens. Unusual in that they walk upright, and have opposable thumbs. They think with their meat, if you can believe that.

     
  • At 10:22 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Again with your childish generalizations. Obviously you can't think at all.

     
  • At 10:31 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: Again with your ... generalizations.

    Hardly a generalization, but a particular species of simian, with the habit of building stone monuments. The remains of these simians have been found under the monument, another common practice of this species. It's a very reasonable conclusion.

     
  • At 10:39 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    It is a generalization seeing that you cannot say any specifics about the designer. What was his/her name? Color of hair, religious affiliation?

    Also just because human remains were found there doesn't mean humans designed it.

     
  • At 10:48 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: It is a generalization seeing that you cannot say any specifics about the designer.

    Sure we can. They are a species of simian, a sub-group of Hominidae. They consume other organisms for nourishment. They are animals with differentiated tissues, including an alimentary canal. They have an array of sense organs at one end, including eyes and ears. They have vertebrae, which protect a nerve cord. They have four limbs, including five digits on each. They bear their children live, which are still underdeveloped at birth. They care for their young, including feeding them with specialized glands on the female. They have hair on their heads and genitals, but the skin is otherwise unprotected. They walk upright. They are the most intelligent of the simians. They use tools of all sorts. They communicate by blowing air through their throats and by flapping their mouth parts. They engage in ritual burial. At the period Stonehenge was constructed, they were already well-established monument builders. The remains of their burials have been found at Stonehenge, as well as nearby settlements. This species of simian almost certainly built Stonehenge.

    Can you tell us in like detail about the designer of the flagellum?


     
  • At 11:06 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Thank you for proving my point. And thank you for being a coward and avoiding my questions.

    At the period Stonehenge was constructed, they were already well-established monument builders.

    And we know that, contra Kevin, not by watching them but by what they left behind- and even then we don't know how they did much of what they accomplished.

    Everything we know about Stonehenge we know by studying it and all relevant evidence, just as I said and very contrary to what Kevin demands.

    And Zachriel has supported that claim- thanks

     
  • At 11:13 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: And we know that, contra Kevin, not by watching them but by what they left behind-

    We understand Stonehenge, not just from Stonehenge, but from the characteristics of the posited builders, their abilities, and all the evidence of those builders, including their physical remains. Indeed, from what we understand, the species still builds monuments, and buries their dead.

     
  • At 11:14 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Can you tell us in similar detail about the designer of the flagellum? Did the designer have opposable thumbs?

     
  • At 11:27 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Zachriel:
    Can you tell us in similar detail about the designer of the flagellum?

    Similar to your meaninglessdrivel? I don't stoop that low.

    Did the designer have opposable thumbs?

    That's possible. It is a given the designer is smarter than we are.

     
  • At 11:31 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Zachriel:
    We understand Stonehenge, not just from Stonehenge, but from the characteristics of the posited builders, their abilities

    We know their abilities from what they left behind- what we think they designed and built. However just because human remains were found at the site that does not tell us they designed and built it.

    But anyway, thanks again for proving my point.

    Also are you suggesting that the builders of Stonehenge used heavy machinery like exacvators- like the builders of today use?

     
  • At 11:34 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: Similar to your meaninglessdrivel?

    Hardly meaningless. Indeed, we could expand the list of characteristics considerably.

    Can you tell us in similar detail about the designer of the flagellum?

     
  • At 11:45 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    It is totally meaningless as it does not get to the "who". It is just a generalization using the definition of "simian".

    Can you tell us in similar detail about the designer of the flagellum?

    Can you tell me why that is relevant? You cannot provide any details as to how Stonehenge was built.

    However just because human remains were found at the site that does not tell us they designed and built it.

     
  • At 11:49 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: Can you tell me why that is relevant?

    You asked who built Stonehenge. We narrowed it down to a species of Earthling known for building stone monuments. We asked who built the flagellum. You can't answer.

     
  • At 11:51 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    So everything we know about Stonehenge comes from studying it and all relevant evidence. We now believe that humans built it, but not which human nor what that human's qualities were.

    OK, just as I said in the OP.

     
  • At 11:54 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Zachriel:
    We narrowed it down to a species of Earthling

    And you did that by studying Stonehenge and all relevant evidence. And you don't even know if you are right.

    ...known for building stone monuments.

    Not those earthlings. They weren't known for doing anything. That is why Stonehenge has been attributed to giants and ETs.

    It's as if you are proud to talk in circles and tie yourself in knots.

     
  • At 11:57 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Zachriel:
    We asked who built the flagellum.

    We don't care what you asked, but most likely not a human. And as I said earlier today, that designer is much smarter than humans.

     
  • At 11:58 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    So no one knows who designed Stonehenge and Zachriel's childish antics prove my point.

     
  • At 12:04 PM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: And you did that by studying Stonehenge and all relevant evidence.

    The relevant evidence includes studying the organisms who constructed Stonehenge.

    Joe G: They weren't known for doing anything.

    Sure they were. Stone monuments of even greater size long predating Stonehenge were built by simians.

    Joe G: We don't care what you asked, but most likely not a human.

    So you can't provide us any characteristics of the designer.

     
  • At 12:12 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Zachriel:
    The relevant evidence includes studying the organisms who constructed Stonehenge.

    And we can't do that.

    They weren't known for doing anything.

    Sure they were.

    No, they weren't and that is why giants and ETs were firt proposed as the designers.

    Stone monuments of even greater size long predating Stonehenge were built by simians.

    Maybe, maybe not and definitely nothing like Stonehenge.

    So you can't provide us any characteristics of the designer.

    I did. So obviously I can.

     
  • At 12:12 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    So no one knows who designed Stonehenge and Zachriel's childish antics prove my point.

    lather, rinse, repeat...

     
  • At 12:23 PM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: And we can't do that.

    Of course you can. Not only did they leave remains, but they left artifacts. Indeed, the species is still extant that last we checked.

     
  • At 12:24 PM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: And we can't do that.

    Of course you can. Not only did they leave remains, but they left artifacts. Indeed, the species is still extant that last we checked.

     
  • At 12:28 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    1- We don't know if any of the rtemains are those of the designer(s)

    2- We don't know if any of the remains were that of the builders

    3- The people of today did not build Stonehenge and therefor are irrelevant, just like you.

     
  • At 7:58 PM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    So you argument depends on denying that humans built Stonehenge.

     
  • At 8:42 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Nope. Keep fishing. I find it entertaining.

     
  • At 8:47 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Which human remains, at the site, belong to the builders of Stonehenge?

    And if you don't know how Stonehenge was built how do you know humans of that period were capable of building it? Where are their labs? Where are their power supplies? Where are all of the plans?

     
  • At 8:19 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: And if you don't know how Stonehenge was built how do you know humans of that period were capable of building it?

    Heh. Now you're reduced to claiming that humans didn't build Stonehenge. Suppose aliens fashioned the pyramids, and Uruk is the handiwork of the gods.

     
  • At 8:31 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    And if you don't know how Stonehenge was built how do you know humans of that period were capable of building it?


    Zachriel:
    Now you're reduced to claiming that humans didn't build Stonehenge.

    Non-sequitur and incorrect.

    Obvioulsy Zachriel did NOT read the OP that he is responding to.

     
  • At 8:36 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: Non-sequitur and incorrect.

    So, do you grant that humans built Stonehenge? Or do you prefer some citations to the archaeological evidence for review?

     
  • At 8:45 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Obvioulsy Zachriel did not read the OP that he is responding to.

    Zachriel, you have serious mental issues, seek help.

     
  • At 8:46 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    And it is also very telling that Zachriel refuses to answer my questions....

     
  • At 8:49 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Police Chief to Zachriel: Who is the murderer

    Z- It was a human!

    Chief- You are fired


    Haed Archaeologist: Who desogned and built Stonehenge

    Z- Simians!

    HA- You are fired

     
  • At 8:49 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: Obvioulsy Zachriel did not read the OP that he is responding to.

    Sure we did. You said "The evidence that people built Stonehenge is, wait for it, Stonehenge and the other evidence left behind." That other evidence includes evidence of human presence, activity, and capabilities.

     
  • At 8:51 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    LoL! The isn't any evidence of their capabilities as no one even knows how Stonehenge was built.

    And saying "humans didit" does NOT answer "who", unless you are a moron.

     
  • At 8:58 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    What evidence suggest humans built Stonehenge?

     
  • At 8:59 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Umm until you answer my questions you don't get to ask any. I don't deal with cowards.

     
  • At 9:05 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    So you can't support the claims in your original post concerning Stonehenge.

     
  • At 9:10 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    I have. OTOH you are just a coward- and an ignorant coward at that.

     
  • At 9:15 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: OTOH you are just a ...

    Don't think that supports your position.

    You said "The evidence that people built Stonehenge is, wait for it, Stonehenge and the other evidence left behind." What evidence links Stonehenge to people?

     
  • At 9:25 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    And if you don't know how Stonehenge was built how do you know humans of that period were capable of building it? Where are their labs? Where are their power supplies? Where are all of the plans?

    Still waiting for Zachriel....

     
  • At 9:29 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    In your original post, you said "The evidence that people built Stonehenge is, wait for it, Stonehenge and the other evidence left behind." What evidence links Stonehenge to people?

     
  • At 9:33 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    And we are still waiting for Zachriel to respond to my questions.

    And do your own research Zachriel. There appears to be more than one of you so it should be easy.

     
  • At 9:35 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: And we are still waiting for Zachriel to respond to my questions.

    We could provide some citations, but we are willing to cede to your, um, expertise. In your original post, you said "The evidence that people built Stonehenge is, wait for it, Stonehenge and the other evidence left behind." What evidence links Stonehenge to people?

     
  • At 9:38 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    You can't provide any citations demonstrating how Stonehenge was built. You can't provide any citations showing who designed and built it- who means specifically, not a generalization.

    So answers my questions or admit that you are a coward.

     
  • At 9:40 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    So Zachriel can't stay on-topic and has to "argue" irrelevancies.

    How typical...

     
  • At 9:41 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: You can't provide any citations demonstrating how Stonehenge was built. You can't provide any citations showing who designed and built it- who means specifically, not a generalization.

    You had said "The evidence that people built Stonehenge is, wait for it, Stonehenge and the other evidence left behind." We're asking what that "other evidence" might be that links Stonehenge to people.

    Should we just ignore your original post as you won't support it?

     
  • At 9:50 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Zachriel,

    You are a moron and a coward. Deal with it.

    In this thread YOU posted what that "other evidence" is.

    Are you really that much of a moron that you forgot?

    Zachriel, proud to be an asshole.

     
  • At 9:56 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: Deal with it.

    Not sure that throwing a tantrum supports your position.

    Joe G: In this thread YOU posted what that "other evidence" is.

    Sure. We posted that a particular simian species inhabited the area, that their remains are buried in the area, that they have built stone monuments in many other places around the world during that period, and that the species is known for burying their dead in such monumental structures.

    Now, you had said "The evidence that people built Stonehenge is, wait for it, Stonehenge and the other evidence left behind." We're asking what that "other evidence" might be that links Stonehenge to people.

     
  • At 10:17 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    LoL! I know that your stupidity is not helping your case.

    YOU came here agreeing with me and now you are acting like a tard. Your first post made the case for people building Stonehenge and now you are acting like an asshole wrt that claim.

    What the fuck is your problem?

     
  • At 10:18 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: YOU came here agreeing with me ...

    You had said "The evidence that people built Stonehenge is, wait for it, Stonehenge and the other evidence left behind." We're asking what that "other evidence" might be that links Stonehenge to people.

     
  • At 10:19 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    The point I made wrt Stonehenge in the OP was that all we know about came AFTER determining it was designed, by studying it and all relevant evidence,under the design framework..

    That is the topic for discussion as Kevin seems to think otherwise. Now stay on-topic on leave.

     
  • At 10:20 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    You had said "The evidence that people built Stonehenge is, wait for it, Stonehenge and the other evidence left behind." We're asking what that "other evidence" might be that links Stonehenge to people.

     
  • At 10:22 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    So Zachriel comes here trumpeting the praise of humans for designing and building Stonehenge, as if they is some kind of expert, he finally figures out that I said that and now is acting like a child because his folly has been exposed.

    Too funny...

     
  • At 10:24 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: So Zachriel comes here trumpeting the praise of humans for designing and building Stonehenge

    Yes, provided a few reasons, and offered to provide citations. But we're still interested. You had said "The evidence that people built Stonehenge is, wait for it, Stonehenge and the other evidence left behind." We're asking what that "other evidence" might be that links Stonehenge to people.

     
  • At 10:31 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Umm Zachriel, my OP was BEFORE all of your posts. And if you go back and read all of YOUR posts, as I have done, you covered basically all of it.


    It is all circumstantial wrt designing and building Stonehenge, but it is what we have. And we have it because we first determined Stonehenge was designed and studied it and all relevant evidence in that light.

    We are still working on how, who, when and why.

     
  • At 10:31 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    The point I made wrt Stonehenge in the OP was that all we know about came AFTER determining it was designed, by studying it and all relevant evidence,under the design framework..

    That is the topic for discussion as Kevin seems to think otherwise. Now stay on-topic on leave.

     
  • At 12:41 PM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: The point I made wrt Stonehenge in the OP was that all we know about came AFTER determining it was designed, by studying it and all relevant evidence,under the design framework..

    Well, that might make for a tentative hypothesis. From that hypothesis, we should be able to make predictions about the designer. Absent that, it calls into question your hypothesis. People used to think constellations had meanings.

     
  • At 1:30 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    The point I made wrt Stonehenge in the OP was that all we know about came AFTER determining it was designed, by studying it and all relevant evidence,under the design framework..

    Zachriel:
    Well, that might make for a tentative hypothesis

    That isn't a hypothesis, Zachriel. That is how it is done, period. But yes, from there you can create hypotehses.

    Zachriel:
    . From that hypothesis, we should be able to make predictions about the designer.

    From what hypothesis? Do tell. And do tell about these alleged predictions wrt the designer(s).

    Absent that, it calls into question your hypothesis.

    I just have the proper methodology- it isn't a hypothesis.

    The proper methodology says that abesent direct observation or designer input, the only possible way to make any scientific determination about the designer(s), is by studying the design and all relevant evidence.

    I don't know what you are babbling about now and I am sure that neither one of you will clarify yourselves.

     
  • At 4:41 PM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: That isn't a hypothesis, Zachriel.

    It's not?! A hypothesis is a tentative assumption made in order to draw out and test empirical consequences. You mean you can't use your claim to test empirical consequences of the claim?

    Joe G: From what hypothesis?

    If we tentatively assume Stonehenge is designed, then we should be able to link the artifact to the artisan.

    Joe G: I just have the proper methodology- it isn't a hypothesis.

    If it's not a hypothesis, it is of no scientific consequence. All scientific claims are considered tentative and subject to empirical testing.

    Joe G: The proper methodology says that abesent direct observation or designer input, the only possible way to make any scientific determination about the designer(s), is by studying the design and all relevant evidence.

    You brought up Stonehenge as an example, but there seems to be significant evidence of the designers.

     
  • At 5:18 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Zachrielproves that they are clueless:
    You mean you can't use your claim to test empirical consequences of the claim?

    Yes, we can. We can test to see if we can determine something about a designer of an unknown and undetermined artifact.

    Give it a try and tell us what you come up with.

    Zachriel:
    If we tentatively assume Stonehenge is designed, then we should be able to link the artifact to the artisan.

    We don't tentatively assume Stonehenge is designed. We have determined that it is, beyond any doubt. And we haven't been able to link the artifact to any artisan.

    If it's not a hypothesis, it is of no scientific consequence.

    That's why unguided evolution is of no scientific consequence.

    All scientific claims are considered tentative and subject to empirical testing.

    And design, wrt Stonehenge, has been tested empirically.

    The proper methodology says that abesent direct observation or designer input, the only possible way to make any scientific determination about the designer(s), is by studying the design and all relevant evidence.

    You brought up Stonehenge as an example,

    And it fits.


    but there seems to be significant evidence of the designers.

    Stonehenge itself is such evidence. Again that goes with what I said- that is if you could understand it, which it seems you cannot.

     
  • At 7:18 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Maybe Zachriel is referring to "Minority Report" and its precrime division.

     
  • At 7:42 PM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: We can test to see if we can determine something about a designer of an unknown and undetermined artifact.

    What is an "undetermined artifact"?

    Joe G: We don't tentatively assume Stonehenge is designed. We have determined that it is, beyond any doubt.

    There is no such thing as beyond all doubt in science. All scientific conclusions are considered tentative. That's a fundamental.

    Joe G: That's why unguided evolution is of no scientific consequence.

    The Theory of Evolution has had a profound impact on the biological sciences.

    Joe G: Stonehenge itself is such evidence.

    What that "other evidence" links Stonehenge to people.

     
  • At 8:27 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    What is an "undetermined artifact"?

    Something that you don't know what it is or if it is an artifact or not. I'm not sure as I was trying to make sense out of what you posted.

    There is no such thing as beyond all doubt in science.

    Sure there is. Laws are beyond all doubt. Our existence is beyond all doubt.

    Perhaps those laws are not part of science.Perhaps our existence is not part of science. Or perhaps you are confusing the fact that science is not about proof with the fact that some things are beyond all doubt.

    What are the odds of having a ten pound rock float in the air when dropped?

    The Theory of Evolution has had a profound impact on the biological sciences.

    Please reference this alleged theory of evolution and tell us of this alleged "profound impact".

    Or at least tell us what unguided evolution predicts.

    What that "other evidence" links Stonehenge to people.

    Just what you posted, which doesn't demonstrate people designed and built it.

     
  • At 8:24 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: Laws are beyond all doubt.

    Um, no. They're not. Newton's Law of Gravity is not beyond doubt. The Law of Conservation of Matter is not beyond doubt. No scientific claims are beyond all doubt, though some are "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent."

    Joe G: We can test to see if we can determine something about a designer of an unknown and undetermined artifact.

    What can the evidence tell us about the designer of Stonehenge? What can the evidence tell us about the designer of the flagellum?

     
  • At 8:47 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    : Laws are beyond all doubt.

    Um, no

    Yes, they are. Drop a heavy rock, see what it does 100 % of the time- beyond any doubt.

    What can the evidence tell us about the designer of Stonehenge?

    That the designer was able to do what mother nature could not.

    What can the evidence tell us about the designer of the flagellum?

    Same thing AND the designer of the BF had a more complex task than the designer of Stonehenge and the BF designer is smarter than we are.

     
  • At 8:49 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    As preducted cowardly Zachriel did not reference this alleged theory of evolution, cannot support their claim that it has a profound impact on biological sciences and cannot produce any predictions borne from unguided evolution.

    Nice job Zachriel.

     
  • At 9:01 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: Drop a heavy rock, see what it does 100 % of the time- beyond any doubt.

    Rock.
    http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/images/ida1.jpg

    Tomatoes
    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/03/13/article-2292903-18A1F2AB000005DC-296_634x432.jpg

    Frog
    http://www.ru.nl/hfml/research/levitation/diamagnetic/

    Car
    http://ak9.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/1829555/preview/stock-footage-cartoon-of-machine-with-huge-magnet-picking-up-cars-in-junk-yard.jpg

    Casimir Effect
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

    Joe G: Same thing

    We posted that a particular simian species inhabited the area, that they have built flagellum in many other places around the world during that period, and that the species is known for burying their dead in such flagellar structures.

    Hmm. Doesn't seem to fit does it.

    Joe G: did not reference this alleged theory of evolution,

    Darwin 1859. You can probably catch up a bit by reading most any textbook on biology.

     
  • At 9:08 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Drop a heavy rock, see what it does 100 % of the time- beyond any doubt.

    Rock.
    http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/images/ida1.jpg<


    No one dropped that rock- you are an asshole, Nice job.

    Same thing

    We posted that a particular simian species inhabited the area, that they have built flagellum in many other places around the world during that period, and that the species is known for burying their dead in such flagellar structures.

    Hmm. Doesn't seem to fit does it.


    Yes I know that you are proud to be an asshole.

    did not reference this alleged theory of evolution,

    Darwin 1859.

    Which has failed all tests. Again, nice job assface.

     
  • At 9:13 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: No one dropped that rock

    So the Law of Dropping only applies to rocks, not tomatoes?
    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/03/13/article-2292903-18A1F2AB000005DC-296_634x432.jpg

    Joe G: I know that you are proud

    Perhaps, but it's not an argument.

    You said we could reach the same conclusions about the designer whether we were studying Stonehenge or the flagellum. Accordingly, they were both designed by a peculiar simian species that walks upright and thinks with its meat. Interesting.

     
  • At 9:31 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    No one dropped that rock

    So the Law of Dropping only applies to rocks, not tomatoes?

    Don't change the subject like a coward. And I am talking to YOU, noy=t astronauts.

    Please TRY to follow along.

    You said we could reach the same conclusions about the designer whether we were studying Stonehenge or the flagellum.

    No, I did not. Obviously you have issues.

     
  • At 9:34 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Zachriel,

    Thank you for coming here and supporting my claims. However I do not need your support.

     
  • At 7:43 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    "
    The conclusion that something was designed can be made quite independently of knowledge of the designer. As a matter of procedure, the design must first be apprehended before there can be any further question about the designer. The inference to design can be held with all firmness that is possible in this world, without knowing anything about the designer."—Dr Behe

     
  • At 8:42 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: Don't change the subject ...

    So the Law of Dropping only applies to rocks, not tomatoes?
    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/03/13/article-2292903-18A1F2AB000005DC-296_634x432.jpg

    Nothing in science is beyond all doubt.

    Zachriel: You said we could reach the same conclusions about the designer whether we were studying Stonehenge or the flagellum.

    Joe G: No, I did not.

    Sure you did.

    Z: What can the evidence tell us about the designer of the flagellum?

    J: Same thing

    Behe: The inference to design can be held with all firmness that is possible in this world, without knowing anything about the designer.

    That's his claim, but he's never convinced his peers. People often ascribe design to things which are not designed; lightning, mountains, constellations, planetary movements, disease, bad luck, etc.



     
  • At 8:56 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Zachriel:
    Nothing in science is beyond all doubt.

    Yes, there are and your childish antics can't refute that.

    Zachriel: You said we could reach the same conclusions about the designer whether we were studying Stonehenge or the flagellum.

    No, I did not.

    Sure you did.

    Fuck you asshole. YOU don't get to tell me what I said. It's as if you are proud to be a dishonest asshole. And that doesn't help you at all.

    Context is importatnt and Zachriel the copward had to change the context.


    Behe: The inference to design can be held with all firmness that is possible in this world, without knowing anything about the designer.


    That's his claim

    And it is supported by all knowledgeable scientists.

    People often ascribe design to things which are not designed; lightning, mountains, constellations, planetary movements, disease, bad luck, etc.

    So what? That has nothing to do with what Behe said.

     
  • At 9:02 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Seeing that Zachriel is having problems following along:

    Zachriel:
    What can the evidence tell us about the designer of Stonehenge?

    That the designer was able to do what mother nature could not.

    What can the evidence tell us about the designer of the flagellum?

    Same thing AND the designer of the BF had a more complex task than the designer of Stonehenge and the BF designer is smarter than we are.

    Context is important and always ignored by the cowardly Zachriel.

     
  • At 9:03 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: YOU don't get to tell me what I said.

    Anyone can read it for themselves.

    Z: What can the evidence tell us about the designer of the flagellum?

    J: Same thing

    Joe G: So what? That has nothing to do with what Behe said.

    Sure it does. People often infer design when it's not design.

    Joe G: Drop a heavy rock, see what it does 100 % of the time- beyond any doubt.

    Nothing is science is beyond all doubt.
    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/03/13/article-2292903-18A1F2AB000005DC-296_634x432.jpg

     
  • At 9:08 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Zachriel:
    Anyone can read it for themselves.

    Obviously you can't.

    So what? That has nothing to do with what Behe said.

    Sure it does.

    No, it doesn't.

    People often infer design when it's not design.

    And that has nothing to do with what Behe said.

    Drop a heavy rock, see what it does 100 % of the time- beyond any doubt.

    Nothing is science is beyond all doubt.

    Perhaps not to a scientifically illiterate ass like you. But to everyone else, there is plenty that is beyond all doubt.

     
  • At 9:08 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Seeing that Zachriel is having problems following along:

    Zachriel:
    What can the evidence tell us about the designer of Stonehenge?

    That the designer was able to do what mother nature could not.

    What can the evidence tell us about the designer of the flagellum?

    Same thing AND the designer of the BF had a more complex task than the designer of Stonehenge and the BF designer is smarter than we are.

    Context is important and always ignored by the cowardly Zachriel.

     
  • At 9:25 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: But to everyone else, there is plenty that is beyond all doubt.

    Newton's Law of Gravity is not beyond doubt. The Law of Conservation of Matter is not beyond doubt. No scientific claims are beyond all doubt, though some are "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent."

    Joe G: That the designer was able to do what mother nature could not.

    Heh. That's a {near} tautology, so it doesn't tell us anything.

    When we discussed the designer of Stonehenge, we provided all sorts of details about them, from the number of digits on their appendages to how they communicate by flapping their mouth parts. You can't seem to tell us anything about the designer of the flagellum.


     
  • At 9:33 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    But to everyone else, there is plenty that is beyond all doubt.

    Newton's Law of Gravity is not beyond doubt.

    Maybe not to you. But you aren't anyone of note. And there are still plenty of that is beyond all doubt.

    That the designer was able to do what mother nature could not.

    That's a {near} tautology, so it doesn't tell us anything.

    Heh- it might not tell YOU anything but it tells investigators quite a bit.

    When we discussed the designer of Stonehenge, we provided all sorts of details about them,

    Heh, how can you discuss the designer of Stonehenge when you dont know who that was?

    You can't seem to tell us anything about the designer of the flagellum.

    And yet I have.

    As I said it's as if you are proud to be an ass.

     
  • At 9:38 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Zachriel: Newton's Law of Gravity is not beyond doubt.

    Joe G: Maybe not to you.

    Um, Newton's Law of Gravity doesn't work in many situations, hence, it is not beyond doubt.

    Joe G: it might not tell YOU anything but it tells investigators quite a bit.

    What does it tell us about the artisan and the art?

    Joe G: Heh, how can you discuss the designer of Stonehenge when you dont know who that was?

    We already mentioned that evidence strongly suggests that it was a peculiar Earthly species that communicates by flapping its mouth parts.

     
  • At 10:02 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Zachriel:
    Newton's Law of Gravity doesn't work

    Then it isn't a law and you were wrong to bring it up.

    What does it tell us about the artisan and the art?

    It tells us that there was one and that tells us how to proceed with our investigation. That is why archaeologists are studying Stonehenge and geologists are not studying it as a natural formation.

    And the art, well we study it so we can try to figure it out.

    Again all this proves what I said- first we determine design is present or not and only then can we hope to answer any other questions about it.

    We already mentioned that evidence strongly suggests that it was a peculiar Earthly species that communicates by flapping its mouth parts.

    And we already pointed out the mistakes to that thinking and the fact that it does NOT answer the "who"- Earthly species is a what- who would be a specific member of that species.

    To top it all off everything we know about Stonehenge came from first determining that it was indeed an artifact- beyond all doubt- and then studying it. We also looked for, uncovered and are studying other evidence left behind in an attempt to answer the who, why, how and when. Just as I said.

    So Zacho, what is your point?

     
  • At 10:06 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: Then it isn't a law and you were wrong to bring it up.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_law_of_universal_gravitation

    Joe G: It tells us that there was one and that tells us how to proceed with our investigation.

    That's the part we're asking about. What specifics can you provide about the designer and the methods of manufacture?

    Joe G: To top it all off everything we know about Stonehenge came from first determining that it was indeed an artifact- beyond all doubt-

    People once thought lightning was designed. They imagined an angry sky god hurling bolts at the wicked.

    There is nothing beyond all doubt in science.

     
  • At 10:24 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Umm Newton has been superseded.

    It tells us that there was one and that tells us how to proceed with our investigation.

    That's the part we're asking about

    It doesn't seem that way to me. You are asking about something else.

    What specifics can you provide about the designer and the methods of manufacture?

    Yup, that would be something else and doesn't follow from what I said.

    To top it all off everything we know about Stonehenge came from first determining that it was indeed an artifact- beyond all doubt-

    People once thought lightning was designed.

    Prove it and then tell me what that has to do with Stonehenge.

    There is nothing beyond all doubt in science.

    There is plenty that is beyond all doubt in the real world. Stonehenge being designed is one of them. Personal computers being designed is another.

    So again Zachriel what is your point?

     
  • At 10:30 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: Umm Newton has been superseded.

    That's right. Newton's Law of Gravity is not beyond all doubt, indeed, does not accurately describe all gravitational interactions.

    You had said scientific laws were beyond all doubt. That was not correct. No scientific claims are beyond all doubt, though some are "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent."

    Joe G: Yup, that would be something else and doesn't follow from what I said.

    In other words, you can't tell us anything about the designer of the flagellum, but we can tell you all sorts of things about the designer of Stonehenge. Did you know they think with their meat?

     
  • At 10:38 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Zachriel:
    In other words, you can't tell us anything about the designer of the flagellum,

    We have told you something about the designer of the flagellum.

    but we can tell you all sorts of things about the designer of Stonehenge.

    You only think that you can. And everything that you think you can say about the designers of Stonehenge came after determining taht it was designed and studying it and all relevant evidence. Just as I said.

    So again, what is your point?

     
  • At 10:39 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Newton's was never a Law- calling it a law doesn't make it one. Laws don't change. Our understanding might, but the laws don't.

     
  • At 10:40 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: We have told you something about the designer of the flagellum.

    Just that the designer did something nature couldn't do, which is just begging the question. People couldn't imagine how nature made lightning, so they thought it was an angry sky god.

    Joe G: You only think that you can.

    We can say with some confidence that they had an alimentary canal and fingernails.

     
  • At 10:42 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: Newton's was never a Law- calling it a law doesn't make it one. Laws don't change.

    Heh. Newton's Law of Gravity hasn't changed.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_law_of_universal_gravitation

    People thought the Law always applied, beyond all *reasonable* doubt. But all scientific claims are tentative, no matter how strongly supported, and it turns out the Law doesn't always work as expected.

    Another example is the Law of Conservation of Matter. Or the Ideal Gas Law.


     
  • At 10:44 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Zachriel:
    Newton's Law of Gravity hasn't changed.

    It's not a law. It was never a law. Try to follow along.

     
  • At 10:46 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    We have told you something about the designer of the flagellum.

    Just that the designer did something nature couldn't do,

    And that says quite a bit. I also said the designer of the BF was smarter than we are. And that says quite a bit more.

    We can say with some confidence that they had an alimentary canal and fingernails.

    Your confidence is meaningless wrt science.

    And everything that you think you can say about the designers of Stonehenge came after determining taht it was designed and studying it and all relevant evidence. Just as I said.

    So again, what is your point?

     
  • At 10:49 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    And Zachriel just because you can't imagine how lightning is made and think Zeus is doing it, doesn't mean other people think the same way.

     
  • At 10:52 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe : And that says quite a bit.

    It's begging the question.

    Joe : Your confidence is meaningless wrt science.

    We'd be happy to provide citations. There is virtually no controversy over whether the designers of Stonehenge had hair follicles.


     
  • At 11:08 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Zachriel:
    It's begging the question.

    What question is it begging?

    There is virtually no controversy over whether the designers of Stonehenge had hair follicles.

    And yet no one can say how they did it. And without that no one can say who. And not one of your citations says who.

    And everything that you think you can say about the designers of Stonehenge came after determining taht it was designed and studying it and all relevant evidence. Just as I said.

    So again, what is your point?

     
  • At 11:56 AM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: What question is it begging?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

    Joe G: And yet no one can say how they did it.

    Stonehenge was built in stages using standard mechanical techniques to harness human or animal power; such as ropes, levers, and inclines. No modern researchers of note think magical powers or alien spaceships were necessary when these other standard mechanical techniques were available.



     
  • At 12:20 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Look Zachriel, if you cannot say what question it begs then just say so. My claim doesn't assume any conclusion and is based on every bit of scientific knowledge we have. By your "logic" saying Stonehenge couldn't be produced by mother nature is begging the question?

    And yet no one can say how they did it.

    Zachriel:
    Stonehenge was built in stages using standard mechanical techniques to harness human or animal power; such as ropes, levers, and inclines. No modern researchers of note think magical powers or alien spaceships were necessary when these other standard mechanical techniques were available.

    Good luck testing that claim. Once you have come back and show us the data.

    And everything that you think you can say about the designers of Stonehenge came after determining taht it was designed and studying it and all relevant evidence. Just as I said.

    So again, what is your point?

     
  • At 12:23 PM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: Good luck testing that claim.

    People are more than capable of moving large stones without modern technology. Not sure why you think this is controversial.



     
  • At 12:32 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Zachriel:
    People are more than capable of moving large stones without modern technology.

    Look, everything that you can say about Stonehenge the designers of Stonehenge came after determining that it was designed and studying it and all relevant evidence. Just as I said.

    So again, what is your point?

     
  • At 12:40 PM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: Look, everything that you can say about Stonehenge the designers of Stonehenge came after determining that it was designed and studying it and all relevant evidence.

    No scientific claims are beyond all possible doubt. Rather, if you claim something is designed, then we would look for evidence of manufacture. You have not been able to link the artisan to the artifact, quite unlike Stonehenge.

     
  • At 12:49 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Look, everything that you can say about Stonehenge the designers of Stonehenge came after determining that it was designed and studying it and all relevant evidence.

    Zachriel:
    No scientific claims are beyond all possible doubt.

    Non-sequitur.

    Zachriel:
    Rather, if you claim something is designed, then we would look for evidence of manufacture.

    And you can find that in the object. No one knows how Stonehenge was manufactured. They just know that it shows signs of work and counterflow.

    You have not been able to link the artisan to the artifact,

    No one knows the artisan behind Stonehenge. And you have proven that all we have are generalities- a what rather than a who.

     
  • At 12:52 PM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: Non-sequitur.

    The claim that Stonehenge was designed is a scientific claim like any other, and is subject to falsification. That means the hypothesis of design must entail empirical consequences that are subject to independent testing.

    Joe G: No one knows how Stonehenge was manufactured... No one knows the artisan behind Stonehenge.

    It was manufactured by a peculiar species of simian using simple tools, such as ropes and levers.

     
  • At 1:00 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Zachriel:
    The claim that Stonehenge was designed is a scientific claim like any other, and is subject to falsification.

    It has been tested and deemed designed beyond any doubt.

    That means the hypothesis of design must entail empirical consequences that are subject to independent testing.

    Yes and I have blogged about that. If you could demonstrate that natural selection can produce the bacterial flagellum the design inference, wrt to that BF, is falsified.

    Zachriel:
    It was manufactured by a peculiar species of simian using simple tools, such as ropes and levers.

    That's neither a who nor how. So what's your point besides continuing to support my claims?

     
  • At 1:02 PM, Blogger Zachriel said…

    Joe G: It has been tested and deemed designed beyond any doubt.

    Nothing is beyond any doubt, not even Newton's Law of Gravity.

     
  • At 1:59 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Many things are beyond doubt. So many I couldn't list all of them.

     

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